(Quinze heures onze minutes)
Le Président (M. Ouellette) : À
l'ordre, s'il vous plaît! Ayant constaté le quorum, je déclare la séance de la Commission des institutions ouverte. Je demande à
toutes les personnes dans la salle de bien vouloir éteindre la sonnerie
de leurs appareils électroniques.
La commission est réunie afin de poursuivre les
consultations particulières et les auditions publiques sur le projet de loi n° 113, Loi modifiant le Code
civil et d'autres dispositions législatives en matière d'adoption et de
communication de renseignements.
M. le secrétaire, y a-t-il des remplacements?
Le Secrétaire : Oui, M. le
Président. M. Merlini (La Prairie) est remplacé par M. Girard (Trois-Rivières)
et M. Tanguay (LaFontaine) est remplacé par M. Fortin (Pontiac).
Auditions (suite)
Le
Président (M. Ouellette) :
Nous terminerons, cet après-midi, les consultations avec l'audition des
représentants de la Société Makivik et de la Régie régionale de la santé et des
services sociaux du Nunavik.
Welcome to the National Assembly. We
really appreciate that we have the opportunity to hear you today. La société est représentée par son
président, M. Jobie Tukkiapik. I will let you present the
people who are with you. You have 10 minutes to do your presentation, and,
after that, there will be an exchange with Mme la ministre and the official two
representatives of the two oppositions. So, Mr. Tukkiapik, it's all
yours.
Société Makivik et
Régie régionale de la santé
et des services sociaux du Nunavik (RRSSSN)
M. Tukkiapik (Jobie) : Thank you. We've been briefed on how this is going to go.
Mr. President, Minister Vallée
and dear members of the Committee, I would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity. The last time, we were not
able... and I appreciate the fact that you give us this extra time to present
our views on Bill 13. There will be different speakers within the
10 minutes that are there.
The
bill under review is of primary importance for Nunavik Inuit, therefore it was
essential for us to come and meet with you in order to
present our support on Bill 113 but also to propose some comments on its
content and also on its relevance for the
Inuit context. I am today accompanied by Andy Pirti, he is the treasurer for
Makivik Corporation, and also, to my
left, it's Minnie Grey, the executive director for the Nunavik Regional Board
of Health and Social Services, and also, with the Regional Board of
Health and Social Services, Elena Labranche, who is the director of Inuit
values and practices at the Regional Board.
Also with us we have Mylène Larivière, member of our legal department and
Makivik appointed representative of the
working group on adoption and to the adoption file. So, Minnie will present
other members of the Inuit here.
Le Président (M. Ouellette) : Mme
Grey. OK. You can go ahead.
Mme Grey (Minnie) :
Thank you very much. Thank you, Jobie.
The
Nunavik region has consistently, since the 1980s, and most especially since the
mid-90s, called for a translation of the Québec laws, of the effects of its customary
adoption regime. Although this recognition is offered at the
Constitution Act and of the James Bay and
Northern Québec Agreement, a practical inclusion of the effects of our
adoptions on the filiation of the Inuit children and their parents was
considered crucial. Difficulties regarding this recognition started in 1994 within the reform of the Civil Code of Québec.
Before
the coming into place of the Register of Civil Status, our adoptions were simply recorded at the baptismal certificate held by religious authorities and the
parishes in the territory, so, basically, the Church
took care of our registrations. But with the coming into place of the
provincial civil status registry, the recognition of
the prominent effects of our adoptions on the filiation of our children was considered
a necessity. This is because customary adoptions are still a common occurrence in
Nunavik.
Le Président (M. Ouellette) : Mme
Labranche, yes.
Mme Labranche (Elena) : «Nakurmiik». Customary adoption is a vibrant and alive practice in Nunavik. We estimate that about one out of four or five newborns are adopted
according to our custom up to today. As an average, 50
children are, more or less, customary adopted every year in Nunavik. We have
about 300 newborns each year within the region.
Adoptions will take place through an exchange of consent, usually verbally,
which usually happens before the child is even born. It generally involves members of the
immediate and extended family, and a decision over the customary adoption will be immediate and permanent, with the direct
effects of the filiation of the child and two sets of parents. The adoptive parents are to
become the father and mother of the child, his «anaana» and «ataata», and the biological
mother is to be referenced as the
«puukuluit». The adoptive parents have the whole rights and obligations towards the child to
ensure food, shelter, care, and etc.
M. Pirti (Andy) : Thank
you, Jobie, for the
introduction, and thanks for having me, everybody. Merci beaucoup pour cette opportunité.
Customary
adoption concerns all Nunavik
Inuit. At the second forum of discussion on adoption, hosted by Makivik in 2009 and
2010, all 50 participants declared having been either adopted, or being
adoptive parents, or biological parents who gave one child for adoption.
Under our custom, giving a child for adoption is considered a gift.
I was myself given and received as a gift, as
I was adopted by my parents... Pirti and... Pirti. The effects of my adoption, as for other Inuit adoptions, were permanent. My parents needed to see a
recognized parental authority on me. Like any parent, when I was of minor age,
they needed to be able to order my passport,
register me to school or authorize my health services. Also, they needed to
appear on my birth certificate as my parents officially in rights. Luckily for
me, I was able to benefit from the administrative
procedure put in place between the Nunavik region and the Québec Register of
Civil Status in the 1990s
M.
Tukkiapik (Jobie) : Thank you, Andy. Also, luckily for Andy, his birth
certificate confirmed the actual effects of
our custom on his filiation, thanks to the administrative procedures developed
with the Civil Status and applied since more than 20 years now. But
uncertainty still remains, since some of the court decisions have questioned
the validity of this administrative arrangement... or rather why Québec has not
yet versed its proceedings at its laws. We think
that Bill 113 will resolve this uncertainty once and for all. It follows years
of discussions, numerous consultations held in Nunavik and elsewhere and
the work and report of the working group on adoption.
Two previous bills have died by the
order of paper. We really hope that this is the right time and we are thanking
the Minister of Justice for
that, as for the significant level of collaboration which took place throughout the entire process and even in the
actual drafting of Bill 113.
• (15 h 20) •
Mme Grey (Minnie) : The Nunavik health and social services, like Makivik, support the bill as proposed, subject to the comments offered at our joint brief, which you have
already read.
We
notably touched upon the redundant uses at the bill of the notions of the «interest of the child» and of «the
rights of the child» or «the consent». These concepts are an inherent part of
our customary regime on adoption. They should
not be repeated and repeated in the proposed provisions, as they are already
part of the Inuit customary adoption and do not need to be appraised
accordingly. Also, considering
the health board's role with the Nunavik director of youth protection, we welcome the fact that customary
adoption will now be listed as an available tool in the development of
an intervention plan. That being said, we
have to remember that the customary adoption institution is of a different
order than the Youth Protection Act, and the latter regime of exception has to
respect the distinct and privileged nature of this aboriginal right. A dialogue may be established between the two
institutions, but in no way shall it be a subordination of one order to
another.
Lastly, we call for pursuing the
collaboration with the Government of Québec regarding our other Inuit customary care regimes on
children and families. Bill 113 provides a solution regarding one aspect
of these regimes, the one relating to adoption with permanent effects on
the filiation, but, just like for our First Nations other customary care
regimes... exist in Nunavik, which may have
been eroded or impacted by the state regimes on youth and families. We need to
pursue our common work to assess the scope of measures that could be put in
place for renewing the role of these important traditions for our youth and our
families.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Mme Labranche.
Mme Labranche (Elena) : Another area where ongoing
collaboration is required is on the transboundary
effects of our Inuit customary adoptions.
As a matter of fact, adoptions may
take place between Inuit from Nunavik or Nunavut and also from Nunatsiavut. Inuit families are interconnected throughout the
entire Inuit Nunangat. Inuit customary adoptions may validly happen despite the different provincial or territorial
jurisdictions, but effects on the filiation of the adopted children and their
families need to be reconciled between the
different Civil Status departments. We therefore call for a creation of a
specific Québec Inuit table to assess
a protocol implementation of Bill 113 when it comes to Inuit adoptions without
borders and propose solutions, where need be.
Makivik
and the regional health board are more than ready to collaborate with the
Government on this issue.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Thank you. Are you doing the conclusion
or... Ah! OK, Mr. Pirti does the conclusion. Mr. Pirti.
M.
Pirti (Andy) : We also advocate for having support offered for
implementing Bill 113.
This bill calls for the
designation of aboriginal competent authorities which are to be responsible as
a liaison or interface mechanism to inform the Register of Civil Status
whenever a customary adoption will take place. For the Nunavik region, that
means that Makivik will have to designate a competent authority for the Inuit
nation, this in collaboration with the
health board. It will imply providing means of action to this new identity in
the development of its working framework and then, publicly, an
outreach. To ensure the success of this new administrative measure, we request
that adequate resources be offered by Québec to the Nunavik region.
Le Président (M. Ouellette) : You
conclude?
M. Pirti (Andy) : One more.
Le Président (M. Ouellette) : Ah!
OK.
M. Tukkiapik (Jobie) : Thank you. In conclusion, we intend to
carry the new responsibilities devolved to us under
Bill 113 with enthusiasm and diligence, but, considering the number of
customary adoptions which are taking place regularly,
we suggest that the coming into force of these new provisions happen at the
same time as a designation of our Inuit competent authority in order to
prevent any void of application between the new liaison procedure and the old
administrative arrangement still in place with the Register of Civil Status.
We remain available to discuss
with the Minister of Justice this important element as well as other elements mentioned
in our brief. But, at present, on behalf of our two organizations and their
representatives, we are pleased to appear today in front of your
Committee. And again I wanted to thank you for hearing us out, when we were not
available last week. So thank you for the opportunity.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Thank you, Mr. Tukkiapik. Madam Minister.
Mme Vallée : Merci, M. le
Président. Alors, dans un premier temps, simplement saluer les juristes de l'État
qui nous accompagnent une fois de plus dans nos travaux. Alors, on a hâte de
vous retrouver là où on est habitués de vous croiser.
Mr. Tukkiapik and your group,
thank you very much for sharing your comments and your views on Bill 113. It
was important for us to hear
you and it was important for us
to make sure that we would be available to exchange.
I'm going to start with
basically the end of your presentation. You explained that you already have a
lot of customary adoptions that the society is dealing with on a yearly basis.
You already have an administrative support to organize...
and I saw in your brief that you made reference to all the forms that already
exist with regards to the different administrative
steps, the declaration of Inuit customary adoption form. You have information
regarding the parents, the child. So there's a lot of work already...
and done a lot.
How long do you think it would
take the Makivik Society to be able to put in place the necessary steps to
implement or to give full power to Bill 113? What are you going to be needing?
Because you're asking for support. You want
to make sure that there's no delay, and that the bill will be put in place, and
that there won't be any difficulties between
the way that things were done previously and the implementation of the bill. So
how long do you think it's going to take? Do you have an idea? And what
are the resources that you are looking for when you're saying, «We hope that Québec will be supportive of our society»?
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Who is answering? Mr. president.
M.
Tukkiapik (Jobie) : Thank you. Well, if there are more questions, I
can refer to our legal counsel, and Minnie has been on
this file for quite a while.
In
our present situation, we're already looking out for the enrollment status of
beneficiaries in our region, so we have a kind of procedure in place already. For us,
I feel that it would not take long at all to get this in effect. For sure,
we need the support to eventually, probably,
maybe get more staff than now, but, in terms of time, I could say... maybe
within a year, once it's in place, or something like that.
But,
as we said in our brief, it also has to happen at the same time that the bill
is adopted, so that we don't have a void there where the adoptions are being carried
out now and in our customs that are there now. So that's very important.
We
have many examples of people of our own, Inuit, that have been caught between
the cracks, where they don't have identity, and we'd like to avoid that. So, administratively, the
procedure to get this in place, we can turn around quite quickly on this
one.
• (15 h 30) •
Le Président (M. Ouellette) : Madam
Minister.
Mme Vallée : You mentioned that there's a general form, more usual of customary
adoption, but you also mentioned that there
were other forms of adoptions or of ways of taking care of a child that were in
place. Some of the groups that we've
heard last week, especially... I think it was the Attikameks, they suggested
that we put in place a provision for the delegation of the parental
authority. Sorry, I'm trying to use the terms in French and in English. But
they suggest that.
Would that kind of a suggestion be something that you
would consider being useful for the communities that you represent?
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Mme Grey.
Mme Grey (Minnie) : Yes. We need to distinguish between
customary care and customary adoption. We are here to promote our right to continue our customary
adoption. It's our tradition. It's something that we still practice today. It's
not to say that we don't have a customary care. For example — I'm a grandmother now — if my daughter, having a three-year-old daughter, decides that she would like
to take two years of study without taking care of her child, naturally, I would agree with her to take care of my three-year-old
granddaughter. That's customary care. We all do that within families, I think. But here we're talking about customary
adoption, a traditional practice that has been done for many years. So, when
we're talking and promoting for the adoption of Bill 113, we're talking
about customary adoption, not customary care.
Mme Vallée : And, for you, what, I understand, is
the main difference is the permanent effect of the
adoption versus the temporary...
Mme
Grey (Minnie) : ...
Mme
Vallée : ...that has to do with the
care.
Mme Grey (Minnie) : ...practice it. We just want to see it
recognized in the civil status, because, as we've
heard... Andy is lucky to have made his
paperwork done properly, but, to this day, when we talk about a child that had
been born from an Inuit family living
in Ontario and has been adopted to a family in
Kuujjuarapik, for example, that person... that person will be 14 years old, wants to go on a
school trip outside of Canada, his
adoptive parents have no authority over that, so the other parents living in Ontario have to be involved. This is something where it's
really extremely important. When a custom adoption is being
done, it's verbally done between families, and, right now, through Makivik, we
record all this, and they're now
recognized, but we need... in order to get away from that bureaucracy of having
to do these forms with these people and those people, we need to develop
a system in place, an authority within Nunavik, and with collaboration with Québec, that that filiation is recognized
and then it's put on the Québec
birth certificate.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Madam Minister.
Mme Vallée : You also made a point of saying there are too
many references to «the interest of the child» in some of the terms that are
used in the bill, and I understand that, for you, it goes without saying, it's
part... if I understand correctly the presentation that you made, it's unnecessary to use the
term, because it goes without saying in customary adoption.
Then,
if it goes without saying, what is the problem with the fact that the terms are
being used in Bill 113?
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Mme Grey.
Mme Grey (Minnie) : I think history has shown, with the
introduction of foreign laws or foreign ways of doing things... We recognize, as Quebeckers, as Inuit in
Nunavik, that, yes, there is the Youth Protection Act to protect the
rights of the children, to ensure their safety and that they grow up not
neglected and that they're not in danger.
We recognize that there is already a
law, but our customs are also unwritten to ensure that we raise our children properly. I think, in
every society, unfortunately, we see children that are not cared for. But we
already have the law in Québec,
which, we believe, having been imposed, in a way, in our society, has created a
lot of negative impacts within our society,
within our communities, and we believe that by bringing back some of our...
well, by bringing back and continuing to
use our traditions and having them recognized, it can empower the community,
you know, to take on the responsibility of better care of children.
Foreign law really cannot be imposed, should not impose itself on our customary
practices.
I believe that the Youth Protection
Act and the DYP can be linked and use this Bill 113 as a tool, but their roles should only be as an opinion and not to be about consent. The
consent should be between the adoptive parents and the people giving their
child away.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Madam Minister.
Mme
Vallée : But, actually, Youth
Protection does not have to give their consent, they give a notice, or «un avis», as we find in 543.1. But it's not a consent
that has to be given by Youth Protection, it's basically just a notice.
I'm trying to find the right term. But it's an «avis». It's quite different of
the consent.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Mme Grey.
Mme Grey (Minnie) : Maybe I used the word «consent» in a
wrong way, but there is already a lot of imposition of the Youth Protection Act in our society. So, when
we look at 543.1 in the proposed bill, we believe that... when you go down to the third paragraph, «the competent
authority issues a certificate attesting the adoption after making sure
that it was carried out according to
custom», we believe that the rest of the paragraph should not even be included,
because it alludes to : «...[this] authority also makes
sure, in light of an objective appraisal, that the adoption is in the interest
of the child.»
We would like to see the
Youth Protection Act and the customary adoption law be able to work together without one being more authoritative than the other. It's basically
what we're trying to say.
Mme Vallée : ...but
the consent is the consent of the parents, make sure that the consent of the
parents is given without any kind of pressure. That's
the objective of that.
Mme
Grey (Minnie) : Yes. Well, there can never be a customary adoption if
both parents don't consent.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Thank you, Mme Grey. Mme la députée de Joliette.
• (15 h 40) •
Mme
Hivon :
Oui. Bonjour. Hello. Welcome. We're very happy to be able to
hear you today.
Juste un petit moment pour que je salue à mon tour les juristes de
l'État qui nous font encore une fois l'honneur de leur présence et leur dire que je leur souhaite un
règlement négocié pour eux comme pour nous. Alors, je vais poursuivre en
français. Si vous voulez mettre vos écouteurs. Au besoin.
Bien,
je veux vous remercier. De ce que je comprends du dossier, c'est que ce sont
vraiment les Inuits qui sont à
l'origine de la démarche pour qu'il y ait
une reconnaissance de l'adoption coutumière, parce que, chez vous, c'est
une pratique qui est existante et très
documentée — je vais y revenir — et parce que vous aviez, au fil du temps, eu
des travaux ou des demandes auprès du
Directeur de l'état civil pour que justement les choses puissent être
simplifiées, et on voulait qu'il n'y
ait pas de régime parallèle ou qu'il n'y ait pas d'assise... On voulait qu'il y
ait des assises dans notre droit. Donc, c'est pour ça que je suis
vraiment heureuse de pouvoir vous entendre, parce que je vous vois comme, je
dirais, les principaux instigateurs, peut-être, de cette démarche-là, et je
vous remercie. Je pense que vous avez, sans doute, fait un travail très sérieux, parce que vous êtes les seuls qui sont capables
de nous documenter... Je vois à la page 5 de votre mémoire que vous
parlez... en 1992, 23 % des Inuits de plus de 15 ans disaient qu'ils
avaient été adoptés, 57 % des individus âgés de plus de 15 ans qui avaient
été sondés avaient déclaré avoir été adoptés ou qu'ils avaient au moins donné un enfant en adoption, puis, en 2003,
c'était 33 % des répondants qui déclaraient avoir été adoptés selon la
coutume. Alors, je vous remercie parce que
ça nous donne, je dirais, pour une fois vraiment un portrait clair de
l'importance de la pratique coutumière. Alors, c'est pour ça que je veux
vraiment vous entendre.
Je
comprends que chez vous, pour qu'on parle d'adoption coutumière... on pourra
revenir sur la garde coutumière, ou
«care», c'est d'autre chose, mais, l'adoption,
il faut que chez vous le lien de filiation nouveau soit établi clairement
avec les nouveaux parents. Est-ce que
je comprends que, dans tous les cas, le lien de filiation précédent est rompu
ou est-ce que les deux peuvent
coexister?
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Mr. president or Mme Grey? Mme Grey.
Mme Grey (Minnie) : You know, you ask this question... I
was at the Kuujjuaq Airport, yesterday, waiting for my flight to come here and I
noted a woman sitting in one of the chairs. I joined her and... We're from the
same community, but Kuujjuaq is becoming a big town, so we don't
see each other very often, except at the airport. So we sat down and we talked. And there was this
young man from up the coast, from our hometown. This lady lives in Kuujjuaq now because she has married a man from Kuujjuaq, and this young man... he's not so young anymore,
but he's a grown man, he has his own family and he was
sitting there, and we shook hands, and then he said to this woman, «Puukuluit.»
He used the word «puukuluit». That means «the container I came from». That's
the literal translation of a woman that gave a child for adoption. So this young man said «puukuluit» to this lady. I
said, «I'm sorry, I'm going to have to move over there because I have to
charge my computer.» So that was the end of their visit, because she had come
up to the airport to see him. And she was
very young when she had him, so she gave him up for adoption, and, to this
day... he's now a family man and he
calls her his «puukuluit» because he has grown up knowing that was his
biological mother. And this is the respect that we have. Andy, who just
spoke, was raised by his grandparents but knows his biological parents.
So this is something that is continued
today. And I have two siblings. My mother adopted me. They know where they came from as children
and they were my mother's children, my sister and brother, but, as we grow and
become adults, we live amongst... in
a community, and, you know, people sometimes get really confused as to saying
«my sister and my brother», and
somebody that doesn't understand this concept, they say, «Well, I thought
Minnie was your sister.» Oh, no, no,
no, she's my sister, my adopted sister, but those are my biological sisters and
brothers. But that's how we've lived all our life, and it continues
today.
Le Président (M. Ouellette) :
Mme la députée de Joliette.
Mme
Hivon : O.K. La
raison pour laquelle je pose cette question-là, c'est que, dans le projet de loi, on parle un peu en termes de rupture de filiation, donc d'une nouvelle
filiation. Là, ensuite, on a eu les Cris qui sont venus, qui nous ont
dit : Bien, il n'y a pas nécessairement de rupture, il peut y avoir coexistence de
deux... je parle juridiquement, là... ou dans la coutume. Puis là, à la fin de la semaine dernière, avec les Attikameks
et les Innus, là, on nous a dit qu'il pouvait même ne pas y avoir de
deuxième filiation et qu'on soit dans la garde, simplement.
Alors,
moi, ce que je veux comprendre, parce
que nous, on ne vous aura plus toujours
avec nous pendant qu'on va étudier le
projet de loi article
par article : Est-ce que pour
vous ces questions-là de filiation, de savoir s'il y a eu rupture du premier lien, s'il y a coexistence d'un
premier et d'un deuxième... si, peut-être, il n'y
a pas de deuxième lien, ce sont
des questions importantes? Un. Et, deux, est-ce que pour vous c'est
clair, dans la coutume inuite, si ces liens-là perdurent, s'ils sont
rompus? Je ne parle pas des liens connus dans la communauté, mais plus d'un point
de vue juridique ou social.
Le
Président (M. Ouellette) : Mme Grey.
Une voix :
...
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Oh, Mr. Pirti. OK.
M.
Pirti (Andy) : Je vais
essayer de répondre dans le contexte que je comprends aussi les questions qui
sont posées.
Il y a
des raisons pourquoi on a des lois. On a des protections, on essaie de protéger
les enfants, et c'est pour ça que ça
vient, les règlements qu'on a aujourd'hui. Mais vous devez aussi comprendre que vous, vous
avez une culture, vous avez des
coutumes, et parfois les coutumes que vous avez, ça vient des habitudes qui
viennent avec l'habitude de vie qu'on a dans notre société. Parfois, ce n'est pas toujours
perçu comme normal de l'extérieur, mais c'est votre culture, c'est votre
mode de vie. Nous aussi, on a des modes de vie, puis, la façon qu'on a adopté
nos façons de vivre, c'est parce qu'elles sont acceptées par la société. Oui, parfois, ça peut être un petit peu
difficile pour la mère de laisser l'enfant, mais il y a des raisons. À
la fin, on croit que c'est meilleur pour l'enfant, c'est meilleur pour la mère,
puis aussi on sait que la...
Moi,
j'ai été adopté, j'ai été bien aimé, je n'ai jamais senti qu'il n'y avait pas
l'amour dans ma famille, puis c'est socialement accepté. S'il y a une
adoption ici, dans le sud, je sais que normalement il doit y avoir la
protection du DYP, qu'on dit en anglais, qui
se trouve à être incluse, pour savoir qu'il n'y a pas de problème, dans cette
coutume, qui se passe, mais pour nous
autres c'est normal. Pour moi, dans mon village, j'avais ma mère biologique
puis aussi j'avais ma mère adoptive.
J'ai une bonne relation avec ma mère biologique aujourd'hui, mais, même si ma mère
adoptive n'est plus avec nous aujourd'hui... mais ça a agrandi ma
famille, et aujourd'hui je sens que j'ai une plus grosse famille, comme je dis,
adoptive puis je me sens toujours chanceux que j'ai été adopté par mes parents.
Le Président (M. Ouellette) : ...un court commentaire, Mme la députée de
Joliette, parce que votre temps est écoulé, là. Mais je l'ai fait avec
Mme la ministre. Je ne sais pas si vous avez un dernier commentaire pour...
Mme
Hivon :
Ah! oui, j'en avais, parce que je pense qu'on s'est peut-être perdus dans la
traduction.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Oui. O.K.
Mme
Hivon :
Mais allez-y.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Oui, M. le député de Borduas.
• (15 h 50) •
M.
Jolin-Barrette : Merci, M. le Président. Mesdames messieurs, bonjour,
merci de participer aux travaux de la commission.
Moi
aussi, je vais saluer les juristes de l'État. Et, pour les gens qui nous
écoutent aussi, on peut noter qu'on est en session intensive présentement et que, généralement, on étudie longuement des projets de loi à cette période-ci de l'année, que le salon bleu est supposé
être ouvert jusqu'à 21 h 30, et maintenant le salon bleu est fermé,
et les parlementaires n'étudieront pas de projet de loi, à part en commission
parlementaire.
Donc,
je pense que ça a peut-être un lien également
avec le fait que les juristes soient sur la grève encore cette semaine
et que le gouvernement les ignore.
Ceci
étant dit, je vous remercie de votre présence et je vais vous poser quelques
questions notamment sur l'adoption transfrontalière, parce qu'il y a
différents groupes qui sont venus et qui nous ont dit : Dans le fond, on
voudrait mettre un mécanisme en place pour
que, les adoptions coutumières qui se réalisent sur des territoires
outre-frontières nationales comme le Canada
et les États-Unis ou entre les provinces, on puisse les
reconnaître. J'aimerais vous entendre là-dessus, parce que vous
l'abordez dans votre mémoire.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Mme Grey? Mme Labranche.
Mme Grey (Minnie) :
Labranche.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Mme Labranche.
Mme Labranche (Elena) : As Minnie had mentioned earlier that a
child being born in Ontario, being adopted
to someone in Nunavik... the papers don't match, they
don't follow, so this is why we would need a specific Québec table for it to be able to
recognize the civil status of the child, no matter where this child is coming
from when it's transported, I mean, from
different borders, that type of thing, or different territorial or provincial
boundaries. Therefore, we would like to have this specific table that,
you know, would be able to oversee all the paperwork and that the status of the
child is well accepted, no matter which territorial province this child is
coming from.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : M. le député de Borduas.
M. Jolin-Barrette : Donc, ce que vous réclamez, c'est que ça se retrouve sur une table,
mais est-ce que vous nous invitez à légiférer sur ça également, le fait
de faciliter la reconnaissance de l'adoption qui a été réalisée, supposons,
dans d'autres provinces canadiennes? Est-ce que vous souhaitez qu'on légifère
là-dessus, qu'on l'indique dans la loi?
Le
Président (M. Ouellette) : Mme Labranche.
Mme Labranche (Elena) : Legally, it would be better for us to
be... joint effort on this issue for both of us to be
able to do the recognition of where this child is coming from, through the Civil Status.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Mme Grey, yes.
Mme
Grey (Minnie) : I just would like to add a
little bit. There's already today a practice where many people have relatives in Nunavut or Labrador, and, in the event of a
Nunavik child being adopted to Nunavut, or vice versa, there has to be
some kind of an authority in the other jurisdiction that recognizes this
exchange. So this is what we would like to see happen.
M.
Jolin-Barrette : O.K. Je comprends.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : M. le député de Borduas.
M. Jolin-Barrette : Oui. En lien avec le troisième alinéa du paragraphe 543.1, vous
disiez : Nous, on voudrait qu'il n'y ait pas du tout d'autorité
compétente, on souhaite un mécanisme en place, qui existe, qu'on mette en place
un mécanisme pour reconnaître l'adoption
mais qu'il n'y ait pas d'autorité compétente désignée. Dans le fond, vous
souhaitez avoir un arrangement, une convention mais sans que ça soit
formellement indiqué. C'est bien ça que je comprends?
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Mme Grey.
Mme Grey (Minnie) : We are not against a competent
authority. We ourselves agree that there should be a
kind of an authority, whether it be called competent or... probably name it an
Inuktitut name which most of you might not be able
to pronounce, but we would like to have an authority set up in Nunavik that
will be the go-to authority when issues of this nature arise, where adoption has to be discussed, or authorized, or
whatever, so that the proper paperwork will be done.
We're
not against the competent authority, we just have some objections to some of
the wording in that last paragraph, more
specifically «in light of an objective appraisal, that the adoption is in the».
We find that a little bit going away from the oral tradition and verbal
tradition of making an adoption happen. And, as I said earlier responding to Minister Vallée, yes, there's the Youth Protection
Act, we respect that, but we would also like to have a legal recognition
of our tradition, which can work hand in hand.
Le Président (M. Ouellette) :
M. le député de Borduas.
M. Jolin-Barrette : Oui. Puis je constate dans votre mémoire également,
là, qu'à la page 8 vous citez des décisions de la Cour du Québec où on a
eu à interpréter la Loi sur la protection de la jeunesse, et là vous nous
dites, dans le fond : Bien, on a contesté parfois cette coutume-là
de l'adoption coutumière, et qu'il y avait un certain vide juridique.
Si on vient corriger
la situation avec la proposition, les articles de loi qu'on a présentement dans
le projet de loi n° 113, est-ce que, selon vous, ça viendrait éviter ce
genre de situation là, qui a été soulevée à la cour?
Le Président (M. Ouellette) : Who
will be the last to answer? So, Mr. president or Mme Grey? Mme Grey.
Mme Grey (Minnie) : Yes, I
believe that there can be clearer lines put in place, because the Youth Protection people will also be
able to use the application of Bill 113 as their new tool of collaboration with
the customary adoption, and it would
put less emphasis on the legal aspect of adoption, and the courts would have a
better understanding of how the Youth Protection has a role and how
Inuit customary adoption has a role.
Le Président (M.
Ouellette) : Thank you, Mme Grey. Merci, M. le président de la Société
Makivik, Régie régionale de la santé et des
services sociaux du Nunavik, M. Jobie Tukkiapik, M. Andy Pirti, Mme Mylène
Larivière, Mme Minnie Grey et Mme Elena Labranche.
Mémoires déposés
Je nous rappelle
avant de conclure les auditions que je procède au dépôt des mémoires des
organismes qui n'ont pas été entendus lors
des auditions publiques, parce que nous terminons nos auditions publiques
aujourd'hui, j'ai nommé : M.
Jean-Pierre Arcoragi, la Commission d'accès à l'information, le Conseil du
statut de la femme et le Protecteur du
citoyen. Cet après-midi, nous devions recevoir le comité des orphelins de
Duplessis, qui s'est finalement désisté mais qui nous enverra un mémoire, aux membres de la commission, dans les prochains
jours. Donc, 17 mémoires reçus, 15 organismes qui ont été entendus.
Merci à tous les
membres, y compris M. le député d'Ungava, qui y a un intérêt particulier, et M.
le ministre des Affaires autochtones, qui est venu nous voir aujourd'hui, pour
votre contribution à nos travaux.
La commission, ayant
accompli son mandat, ajourne ses travaux sine die.
(Fin de la séance à 15 h 58)